posted 02-17-2002 02:56 PM               

But I think this is the right occasion to confront one each other and to face deep problems without killing anyone, even if (Piega, don't be upset with me) I will talk about what it was said here in the last days in his topic.

I could agree everyone can spleak his mind and a screenshot can be lovely or not but I don't think that psiko's posts are a deliberated attack to Piega, neither "psiko's personal crusade" LOL He is not suggesting to all of you to start building and customizing (like he is already doing in his work) so deeply every element of the game, even if I think this is the only future of the TRLE, expecially if we want this dream will last as long as it is possible.

You have two ways to project: you can build something new (textures, objects, audios) or build a really good level using with ART and KNOWLEDGE what it was provided to you with the TRLE.

But when you name Piega as "the best LD in the world" (Piega, don't be upset, I know this was not said by yourself), well, at least I expect some clever use of the already existent things.

For example, the textures Piega used in those screenshots are associations (mixing together style and ages) or choices completely wrong. You could say they are lovely to view, but the fact is that they are WRONG by every point of view: historical, in the use of materials and things like that.

Well, as players, all of you are satisfied with this and you are free to be. It was said those levels are really lovely to play, the gameplay is not hurted by things like this.

But in his topic you saw ONLY screenshots from his next level! and we don't know how it will be. But we can speak about what we see... In those images there are really deep errors and you cannot forget them if we talk about "the best LD of the planet".

I don't know anything about Piega, his job, his education. But some LD's study very deeply before than to realize their levels in order they can build locations, architectures, ages, regarding their levels and the exact story they tell. So every element in the game is combined with this study.

I am not asking Piega to do the same, but he could try to be more "coerent" with the things he builds, locations, puzzles, etc while using all the things all of you are provided with the TRLE. Maybe you could open an alternative way to the REAL "customization" (no using core design work) which now is frightning some of the LD's.

I am not a LD, I am a player and I appreciate enigmas, difficulties, challenges, and really much the new, but even the clever use of already existent traditional tools. I don't think I am that exigent if I ask to "the best level designer" we have now, to go forward his last masterpiece.

At least I think it is natural to improve himself.

This is a screen from TLC:

Nice to look at apparently. I will tell some errors (all in the same only picture):

we are in Rome, and we could forgive the palms. Look at the Venetian gazebo box in the center. Then 19th century painted walls together with imperial marbles, a mixage in the orders and styles for the columns, both how they are put one next to another, either with the arks. The basements, the face. And I could go on.

I believe that for his next project we can ask for a little maturation.
Maybe Piega is getting mature in other things he does. But at least he could win his own coerence in building levels... The one he showed is in the making of, so when will we start to stop a so wasting mixage? Maybe no one did make him to notice this, but the fact remains here in front of our eyes.

My words could be really much more, but I am usually seeing how the discussion is closed really too fast, instead than to discuss freely and happily. I saw closed topics here and in other forum, only because psiko is always the only one and the first to talk about this and you directly think he is moved by fantastic motivations (mmm... which ones finally? to improve the quality of the levels?)

I would really like to listen some level designers about this, because this is a discussion to face both on how to use already existent tools, either how to build something new.

PS: Someone translated this post for me, as I can understand English but sadly I cannot write it correctly, and I didn't want misunderstandings.

posted 02-17-2002 07:18 PM               

And Psiko should keep in mind that every object in every TR game is, technically, a custom object. Meaning that none of them evolved from quadrangular .3DS files, and were in fact created by actual humans. Newer is not always better. If one makes a Peruvian level, there is no need to create a whole host of new Peruvian objects because the other ones (from TR1) have already been used (and are therefore ritually unclean). And even if Psiko rates levels based on customization/lack thereof at Michael Prager's place, the only things he has a right to rate low are the categories concerning objects and textures. Not everything. When he rates a level uniformly low and cites lack of customization in objects, textures and music as his reason, he is simply jealous. Green with envy, in fact, because he can't create levels based on reality - he must make his own so that he doesn't have to worry about his inability to model real life in ways such as Piega and others can do and in fact have raised to an art form.

Well, if Psiko had stayed merely a designer of mediocre levels (or, I should say, the inventor of the techno-tasteless school), then he would have done everyone a good turn. But now he has begun to tear apart other level designers (of infinitely higher caliber) because they do not create custom objects, and because people have made complimentary comments about their levels and not mentioned his in the same breath. I frequent the Michael Prager forum as often as this one, and I can promise everyone here that Psiko had every intention of skewing the ratings by bringing down levels that were being judged as well as his. And in closing I can only hope this won't keep great designers like Piega and others from continuing their hard work.

But I must say that I think Psiko could do us all a great favor by deflating his ego by several cubic miles, therefore allowing air traffic to go from Milan to Messina again on a regular basis.

posted 02-17-2002 11:14 PM               

Why don't you study some ART at school? You are greek and you probably have a classical education, can you tell me what the he*l a victorian glass has to relate with a greek decorations?

Or you accept only post like "piega you are the best" and if I don't like those screenshot I have to stay in silence, and to not speak my mind?

Why don't you tell piega to study a little bit before than to mix 7 civilization in a so ugly mixage?
--------------------------------------------

Ugly 7 civilization mixage? Then what do you call the techno levels. If you ask me it's your levels that are ugly. Well seeing as I'm not the only one who thinks this I might as well get it off my chest too. No hard feelings but nobody is truely the best designer, everyone has an ability beyond some one elses.

posted 02-18-2002 01:46 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by psiko:
sorry, Kristina, what kind of promotion do I need?
Did you hear me talking about what I do? do you know I am charged for what I do? do you think prager's site is the only way to be "promoted"?

Why don't you study some ART at school? You are greek and you probably have a classical education, can you tell me what the he*l a victorian glass has to relate with a greek decorations?

Or you accept only post like "piega you are the best" and if I don't like those screenshot I have to stay in silence, and to not speak my mind?

Why don't you tell piega to study a little bit before than to mix 7 civilization in a so ugly mixage?

---

I am talking about promotion and i mean that behind those remarks of yours you are making a fuss about your level so that people will be curious to see what it is about,plus your actions in another place,and that is so bad because you need to do that by starting an attack.Yes i see you writing about you do,you're always pointing out the custom objects,come on we all know that is what you do.You want so much to convince people that creating custom things are the best that is irritating.That is my opinion.

As for my studies i would advise you to keep your tongue in your mouth and please don't you dare refer to my nationality that way.You are practically saying that i am ignorant,no i didn't go to art school,is that a bad thing,i want to play a game not learn architecture.That is why some things are acceptable.As for that glass did i say it's all right,no i will leave my comments for when that level gets out.

My comment about piega's screenshots was an encouragement as i have done for you in the past when we were exchanging e-mails and you told me so much about you're upcoming level that is now out and it's called "Center of the world".I guess you forgot that and you are now trying to start an ugly argument with me.I thought you were nice when i first "spoke" to you.

You know better than to tell me i am only interested of saying to piega -oh good work,you're a great level designer-if you take a look at my review about your level i am sure that it is very clear that i do appreciate your work,custom objects,music etc.And let me tell you that i don't like very much your scenery because it's not TR as i am concerned but i think i am fair when i judge other people's work.

P.S."Why don't you study some ART at school? You are greek and you probably have a classical education,...."
This is taken as an insult as far as i am concerned.

posted 02-18-2002 02:10 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blu_online:
You have two ways to project: you can build something new (textures, objects, audios) or build a really good level using with ART and KNOWLEDGE what it was provided to you with the TRLE.

But in his topic you saw ONLY screenshots from his next level! and we don't know how it will be. But we can speak about what we see... In those images there are really deep errors and you cannot forget them if we talk about "the best LD of the planet".

we are in Rome, and we could forgive the palms. Look at the Venetian gazebo box in the center. Then 19th century painted walls together with imperial marbles, a mixage in the orders and styles for the columns, both how they are put one next to another, either with the arks. The basements, the face. And I could go on.

---

When you want to talk about I am terribly jelous, you can open a new topic. Now you are off topic and still avoid the discussion. Then I heard someone naming the painter Picasso which is exactly the painter I refer to. If I could I would let him know how much is not real for he didn't painted reality like Piega.

Picasso painted the 4th dimension in his pictures, his work is about how the flow of time runs showing to you all the sides of a character in the same time, that's why you see eyes, mouth and nose "not at their right position", not because he was crazy, but because that is modern art and that was with a "concept", not because he was not able to build "real things and infact in his first period he was "classical".

If you want to point differences between what I do, I will do in another topic, if you want I can even post something I do differently then TR levels, then reply to Blu_online.

I will suggest to not offend me more than all of you already done, because we are talking about TR levels, and you are talking about what I do.

BTW I neither named what I do, neither now, neither putting my signature like I do in other forum.

You should read the topic instead than to reply to me. Then in another topic you can always open, I will show you why I am not jelous, now talk about what Blu_online said here which all of you ignored.

Then KrisGR I hope you will be that kind to write an email if you don't want to open a new topic but you still insist telling me how much I am jelous. I think you are really a sort of magician, why don't you tell me what I will eat tomorrow? LOL

posted 02-18-2002 02:23 AM               

------------------
Kristina L.

posted 02-18-2002 02:41 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blu_online:
You have two ways to project: you can build something new (textures, objects, audios) or build a really good level using with ART and KNOWLEDGE what it was provided to you with the TRLE.

---

I did read three times what you wrote, but I found a quote to my words, you talking about what I do, custom works, your review to my levels and a short note about "a sort of encouragement" to piega (you should read all the posts in that topic)

posted 02-18-2002 03:40 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by KrisGR:
I don't think the level editor we have right now has any future at all,because we are expecting a new game.

---

Wonderful! Finally the first point to discuss which I've been expecting since days!

As the new game is going to be released on november (and we need, for our fun, to play always TR levels, at least me, even if I was blamed of the opposite LOL ), can you suggest me two ways to keep on playing and building them without getting bored, after the TR:NG will be released?

posted 02-18-2002 04:01 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by KrisGR:
...and if i got it right something about a new editor has being implied.

---

Again you are isolating half of what i am writing.I wrote that i think a new editor will be realised or something like that,i don't know the details so we might have a new engine,perhaps TR5.That means more to explore as builders and players.Take it from there.

P.S.Didn't you get my e-mail?

posted 02-18-2002 04:11 AM               

But if we will have the new editor, this will be even very much more complicated, complex, hard. Do we want to be ready for that day?

Then, as a maybe, we need to study (I am studying very hard now) to use correctly the tools (already existent tools we have available) to improve our work and to use those two ways pointed by Blu_online.

posted 02-18-2002 05:47 AM               

but all of you kept on blaming me of jelousy... Than if you don't want to customize there is the second way: a clever use of already esisting texture, objects and audios... (I was even forgetting those palms in "Rome" of the last crusade...)

For example, search on the internet for some pics about Rome or the locations you want to build, and try to "understand" the athmosphere, the period, the feeling of those pictures...

Is this hard, or "so terrible"?

Then I am available to help talented person to go over the technical stuff (as I said before). This is not "being full of myself" but it is to answer to persons who said "not all are good in building custom things"... this is not an excuse to put palms in Rome! LOL

posted 02-18-2002 06:36 AM               

Rome:

Naples:

And calling people's levels 'custom errors' is a gigantic insult to all of us who have built levels based on reality, at which we had to work fairly hard - harder than you worked to make your levels realistic, to be sure.

posted 02-18-2002 06:45 AM               

[edit: stupid computer! it's Graham H.a.n.c.o.c.k]

posted 02-18-2002 07:21 AM               

You were so good to find palms in Italy:they are imported palms, and I am sure you can even find the "cacao" and "tobacco" plantations in several places of the world, and this is exactly the way to represent Rome.

Are you good again to explain me this as the "reality" to show Rome?

Then, surely Picasso tried the 4th dimension in a 2D painting, but you gave this example to tell that for you only "real things" are good, that was not my example... I was defending Picasso from your really oculate judgement that "art is reality".

quote:

---

Originally posted by TRoosevelt_26
I would rather have Rembrandt in my house than Picasso everyday, and that is what Psiko's levels are (Picasso, I mean).

---

So is picasso used as a good example by you or not?

posted 02-18-2002 07:54 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by psiko:
Or you build all by yourself (doing "custom errors"), or search, among what you have available with the TRLE, for a way to not mix so different things.

---

posted 02-18-2002 09:26 AM               

But personally I think it's gotten out of hand, shouldn't this stuff be continued via e-mail?

Then again you could always just interfere

posted 02-18-2002 10:10 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blu_online:
Well, as players, all of you are satisfied with this and you are free to be. It was said those levels are really lovely to play, the gameplay is not hurted by things like this.

But in his topic you saw ONLY screenshots from his next level! and we don't know how it will be. But we can speak about what we see... In those images there are really deep errors

I believe that for his next project we can ask for a little maturation.
Maybe Piega is getting mature in other things he does. But at least he could win his own coerence in building levels... The one he showed is in the making of, so when will we start to stop a so wasting mixage? Maybe no one did make him to notice this, but the fact remains here in front of our eyes.

My words could be really much more, but I am usually seeing how the discussion is closed really too fast, instead than to discuss freely and happily. I saw closed topics here and in other forum, only because psiko is always the only one and the first to talk about this and you directly think he is moved by fantastic motivations (mmm... which ones finally? to improve the quality of the levels?)

---

posted 02-18-2002 10:28 AM               

And for textures.

I DO NOT make ALL of the textures too. for example I took the wood texture from lara's house and the smoke(fog) texture from city.tga to create the chinese wall texture. I really didn't make many textures! And in BTFC I did the same thing (changing colors and overlaying textures) only! So why can't piega do this too? as long as he likes it, why can't he make this library on his own blueprint? He is surely no copycat isn't he?

BTW I really LOVE rene's level if it is easier :P i stuck, always.

posted 02-18-2002 10:41 AM               

Now, having a fast look at your TGA file (as jpg), can you tell me what is the difference between your "not reality" level which takes inspiration by those real chinese temples, and piega's screenshot? I would really like you to post a screen from your level, so we can make some really usefull comments

Then, as you used some custom textures, you at least tried to push your level in another direction than "reality" (which is bad done in the previous piega's shots), and you tried to give your level something "yours" that was finalized to the idea of re-interpretation you had.

In TLC we don't have a "reinterpratation" of Cattolic Church (like I did in my COTW, for example), or classic roman temples, or something known in Rome: there is not something which gives the idea of a sort of an "architect" or "level builder" behind the level. That was an attempt to build in the roman style (or giving the idea of a Rome quarter) but that was not so good in the results.

posted 02-18-2002 10:50 AM               

oh, what about this? lara's toy story again?

and this?

I don't think there are such real things....

YAY, and try critize on these ones since it's not uploaded yet, i will improve myself.

posted 02-18-2002 11:11 AM               

Think about TR3. What we find? Some Easter Island Statues in the Antartic Continent.

What is the "difference" when you build Rome and put all of those "historical", styles, themes errors showed in that screenshot, and presenting you an easter statue in the Pole?

The first one is trying to present some "architecture" which exactly shows you at the end a"mix" of civilizations which is not related to a "plan", to an "idea", like shocking you while showing you those statues.

The "mixage" of civilizations wasn't there with an "idea" but only because there wasn't a real project of ambientations. If is was, we hadn't so many different styles in the same WALL or FACE of the SAME building.

But we are in front of an "idea" (building a Rome level) which was sadly developed. I remind you the egyptians baddies you have to fight which are COMPLETELY separated by the locations, by the enigmas, by the story.

@GECKO: I really like the lights in those screenshots, but I think you exagerated a little bit in the amount of the roofs.

Then Your custom lara is really nice, but she does not fit the story: she "apparently" could be nice in an "urban" location, but I completely like her because she is yours. So when all of us wil have a new 3D custom Lara and this won't be enough to appreciate the custom work, we will talk about building a new lara which is EVEN finalized to the story.

I like your textures, they are NOT heavy, and apart they FIT the story, they are even EVOCATIVE, this means they gives the player the idea you wanted to give. (I would only not exagerate in the roofs).